My wife and I just returned from a TNT (Trans National Travel) packaged vacation to Barbados, staying at the Allamanda Beach Hotel.  I thought I would post our impressions in case anyone else might consider this island or hotel and wants to know how it was.                  The Allamanda Beach Hotel The hotel is rated as 3 stars, which is about right, but it’s a very well run, very pleasant 3 stars. The rooms are arranged around a central courtyard and garden with a small pool.  Although the courtyard is small, as plant fanciers, we found the garden very interesting with some beautiful tropical plants. Our room was fairly large and had a nice kitchen with full size refrigerator sink, and electric stove.  The cabinets had enough plates, cups, bowls, glasses, etc. four people, and quite adequate pots and pans. The room had a television with about a dozen or so cable channels, including CNN, BBC World, PBS, Lifetime, A&E and a few others.  There is a minimally adequate airconditioner that kept the room quite cool at night but, when set at 22C could not get down to that temperature in the daytime.  Still, we found it adequate. Buffet breakfast was included in our package.  There is no restaurant _per se_.  The guests eat at an outdoor pavillion by the sea.  Breakfast offered scrambled eggs, potatos cereal, yogurt, overly sweetened juice, bacon or sausage, sometimes beans, sometimes fried bananas, sometimes other things, plus toast, tea, coffee, and some fresh fruit.  The hours were good and the buffet offered all you could eat. Dinners were also available, but we didn’t try them.  There are a dozen or more restaurants within easy walking distance, and we had the kitchen too. There is no nightlife at the hotel, which was fine with us, and there is just a small and not noisy outdoor bar.  The biggest noises that we heard at night were the sounds of the remarkably loud whistling insects, and the drum of the surf breaking on the shore. Although the hotel is right on the ocean, there is no sandy beach there.  There is a stairway through the coral rocks down to the water where you can get in and out, and you can walk or ride to nearby beaches, including the sister Amaryllis Hotel, where beach facilities, snorkel gear, kayaks, and beach chairs are all free to Allamanda guests. The staff was very good – efficient, hospitable, and kept the whole place very clean.                         Barbados We really liked this island.  Everybody we met was unfailingly friendly, helpful, and courteous.  We encountered none of the anti-tourist hostility that one meets with on some other islands where people are poor and resent what they see as rich white foreigners coming in to enjoy a lifestyle that they themselves cannot afford.  Perhaps we were foolish, but we felt no discomfort at all walking at night or going to distant parts of the island.  Everywhere we went, people were happy to help us with directions and suggestions.  When we rented a car and got lost numerous times, people would try to help us and then go get other people who knew more than they knew to show us the way. Some even told us to follow them, and we suspect they went out of their way sometimes to guide us where we wanted to go. The swimming was as good as anything we’ve encountered anywhere. The water on the Caribbean side is as warm as a bathtub and the waves were gentle and easy to take.  We visited the Marine Reserve and saw a beautiful live reef.  Snorkeling was excellent in many places. Prices seemed high to us.  Typical restaurant meals near our hotel seemed to be $19-$35 US per person for dinner.  Cheaper dining is available further away from the tourist haunts. We liked the swimming and snorkeling a lot.  We also walked around Bridgetown and rented a sort of car (a 4 wheel 0 door "Moke") to tour the island.  The Atlantic coast had some beautiful scenery. Oddly, many of the Bajans (as they call themselves) that we met did not know how to swim.  Here they are in a swimmer’s paradise, and they never went in the water.                             TNT TNT packaged the vacation with Allamanda and American Airlines. They handled the business end adequately well.  The TNT representative at our hotel was very good.  She made phone calls for us and gave us good advice. One thing we would do differently is to NOT buy the airport to hotel transfers.  They turned out to cost a bit more than a taxi ride would have cost for two people, and were significantly less convenient as you had to crowd into a a van full of people and luggage, waiting for everyone to get loaded and on board. Coming home, we were packed off in an 11 am van to board a plane that took off around 2:30 pm.  We’d much rather have spent the time at the hotel or the beach and left for the airport at 12:30.     Alan

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We are also going with TNT. —                               Dilly   http://home.comcast.net/~itsdilly/ http://community.webshots.com/user/savalier People will forget what you said.  People will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife and I just returned from a TNT (Trans National Travel) > packaged vacation to Barbados, staying at the Allamanda Beach > Hotel.  I thought I would post our impressions in case anyone > else might consider this island or hotel and wants to know how > it was. >                 The Allamanda Beach Hotel > The hotel is rated as 3 stars, which is about right, but it’s a > very well run, very pleasant 3 stars. > The rooms are arranged around a central courtyard and garden > with a small pool.  Although the courtyard is small, as plant > fanciers, we found the garden very interesting with some > beautiful tropical plants. > Our room was fairly large and had a nice kitchen with full size > refrigerator sink, and electric stove.  The cabinets had enough > plates, cups, bowls, glasses, etc. four people, and quite > adequate pots and pans. > The room had a television with about a dozen or so cable > channels, including CNN, BBC World, PBS, Lifetime, A&E and a few > others.  There is a minimally adequate airconditioner that kept > the room quite cool at night but, when set at 22C could not get > down to that temperature in the daytime.  Still, we found it > adequate. > Buffet breakfast was included in our package.  There is no > restaurant _per se_.  The guests eat at an outdoor pavillion by > the sea.  Breakfast offered scrambled eggs, potatos cereal, > yogurt, overly sweetened juice, bacon or sausage, sometimes > beans, sometimes fried bananas, sometimes other things, plus > toast, tea, coffee, and some fresh fruit.  The hours were good > and the buffet offered all you could eat. > Dinners were also available, but we didn’t try them.  There are > a dozen or more restaurants within easy walking distance, and we > had the kitchen too. > There is no nightlife at the hotel, which was fine with us, and > there is just a small and not noisy outdoor bar.  The biggest > noises that we heard at night were the sounds of the remarkably > loud whistling insects, and the drum of the surf breaking on the > shore. > Although the hotel is right on the ocean, there is no sandy > beach there.  There is a stairway through the coral rocks down > to the water where you can get in and out, and you can walk or > ride to nearby beaches, including the sister Amaryllis Hotel, > where beach facilities, snorkel gear, kayaks, and beach chairs > are all free to Allamanda guests. > The staff was very good – efficient, hospitable, and kept the > whole place very clean. >                        Barbados > We really liked this island.  Everybody we met was unfailingly > friendly, helpful, and courteous.  We encountered none of the > anti-tourist hostility that one meets with on some other islands > where people are poor and resent what they see as rich white > foreigners coming in to enjoy a lifestyle that they themselves > cannot afford.  Perhaps we were foolish, but we felt no > discomfort at all walking at night or going to distant parts of > the island.  Everywhere we went, people were happy to help us > with directions and suggestions.  When we rented a car and got > lost numerous times, people would try to help us and then go get > other people who knew more than they knew to show us the way. > Some even told us to follow them, and we suspect they went out > of their way sometimes to guide us where we wanted to go. > The swimming was as good as anything we’ve encountered anywhere. > The water on the Caribbean side is as warm as a bathtub and the > waves were gentle and easy to take.  We visited the Marine > Reserve and saw a beautiful live reef.  Snorkeling was excellent > in many places. > Prices seemed high to us.  Typical restaurant meals near our > hotel seemed to be $19-$35 US per person for dinner.  Cheaper > dining is available further away from the tourist haunts. > We liked the swimming and snorkeling a lot.  We also walked > around Bridgetown and rented a sort of car (a 4 wheel 0 door > "Moke") to tour the island.  The Atlantic coast had some > beautiful scenery. > Oddly, many of the Bajans (as they call themselves) that we met > did not know how to swim.  Here they are in a swimmer’s > paradise, and they never went in the water. >                            TNT > TNT packaged the vacation with Allamanda and American Airlines. > They handled the business end adequately well.  The TNT > representative at our hotel was very good.  She made > phone calls for us and gave us good advice. > One thing we would do differently is to NOT buy the airport to > hotel transfers.  They turned out to cost a bit more than a > taxi ride would have cost for two people, and were significantly > less convenient as you had to crowd into a a van full of people > and luggage, waiting for everyone to get loaded and on board. > Coming home, we were packed off in an 11 am van to board a plane > that took off around 2:30 pm.  We’d much rather have spent the > time at the hotel or the beach and left for the airport at > 12:30. >    Alan

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I have never stayed at Allamandah, but been in there some few times. Those that has been to Barbados a while ago would know this hotel as Woodville. Since the days of Woodville, it has been taken over by a swedish man: Leif Brandel. Actually, it is Leif`s son that is the manager at the hotel, while Leif take care of Amaryllis. So both hotel is under swedish management, and works a little different from most other hotels in Barbados. I think Allamanda is a good place, but I would really miss a beach in front the hotel. But then again,  it is just a 5 minutes walk to Accra Beach. And we also would miss some thing to happen in the evening and nights. Because we have a daughter that is 3 years old,  we have to be at the hotel at night. So even if we have the opportunity to join the events at Amaryllis, that is not something we can do. But I can agree for sure that the place is nice, fresh, clean and proper. Good choice! Leif Arild Norway

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Could anyone provide feedback is Pricess Cruises offers on board spa specials? This is my fist cruise on Princess. I have taken advantage of similar specials that have been offered on Royal Caribbean and Celebrityin the past. Thanks!

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>Could anyone provide feedback is Pricess Cruises offers on board spa >specials? This is my fist cruise on Princess. I have taken advantage of >similar specials that have been offered on Royal Caribbean and Celebrityin >the past.

Besides the obvious: why not simply ask Princess Cruises, the best place to ask the question is in the rec.travel.cruises newsgroup. That is where the cruising people hang out. This newsgroup is the place to ask about what to do when you are on an island (or mainland that fronts on the Caribbean Sea). Good luck and enjoy your cruise. Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

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Yes, I realize that rec.travel.cruises is the best place to post that question. I thought that I was in that forum when I origionally posted. Immediately after posting , I realized that my  post was in rec.travel .caribbean, so I reposted in the cruise forum. People do post in the wrong forum sometimes…..so what the hay mon.  No need to get snippy or condescending. Technically, a lot of the questions that are posted concerning travel could be asked of travel agents, tour companies, cruise lines, etc, but these are forums where people should feel comfortable asking travel questions. Perhaps it is best not to repond if you such a simple questions rubs you the wrong way or if you simply do not know the answer. Eat some  prunes and relax, my goodness! Others would be happy to share if they happen to know the answer. Be blessed and not stressed.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Could anyone provide feedback is Pricess Cruises offers on board spa >specials? This is my fist cruise on Princess. I have taken advantage of >similar specials that have been offered on Royal Caribbean and Celebrityin >the past. > Besides the obvious: why not simply ask Princess Cruises, the best place to > ask the question is in the rec.travel.cruises newsgroup. That is where the > cruising people hang out. This newsgroup is the place to ask about what to > do when you are on an island (or mainland that fronts on the Caribbean > Sea). > Good luck and enjoy your cruise. > Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

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>Yes, I realize that rec.travel.cruises is the best place to post that >question. I thought that I was in that forum when I origionally posted. >Immediately after posting , I realized that my  post was in rec.travel >.caribbean, so I reposted in the cruise forum. People do post in the wrong >forum sometimes…..so what the hay mon.

And I’m supposed to have ESP and know that you posted in the wrong newsgroup? Generally when one posts in the wrong newsgroup and they realize it, they issue a cancel on the post. Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

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>>Yes, I realize that rec.travel.cruises is the best place to post that >question. I thought that I was in that forum when I origionally posted. >Immediately after posting , I realized that my  post was in rec.travel >.caribbean, so I reposted in the cruise forum. People do post in the wrong >forum sometimes…..so what the hay mon. > And I’m supposed to have ESP and know that you posted in the wrong > newsgroup? Generally when one posts in the wrong newsgroup and they realize > it, they issue a cancel on the post. > Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Which works only every once in a while. Jeez, Don, leave the guy alone, it’s perfectly fine to post about cruising the caribbean on rec.*travel*caribbean*, you don’t have to get all hormonal about it. — http://www.starterupsteve.com/swf/stfu.html

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Hello everybody.  Hopefully some of you pros out there can help us. We are destined for Ft. Lauderdale in late October and would love to visit the Caribbean. Can anybody please advise the most economical way to get to the Bahamas or Jamaica from Florida?  Is there a ferry?  I know of the "Cat" that sails that route but it is more pricey than airline travel!  Any other possibilities? Thanks a ton!

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>Hello everybody.  Hopefully some of you pros out there can help us. >We are destined for Ft. Lauderdale in late October and would love to >visit the Caribbean. >Can anybody please advise the most economical way to get to the Bahamas >or Jamaica from Florida?  Is there a ferry?  I know of the "Cat" that >sails that route but it is more pricey than airline travel!  Any other >possibilities? >Thanks a ton!

The Bahamas isn’t in the Caribbean.  You can fly there on Chalk’s seaplane – don’t know how much it costs.  There are also 3 day cruises on cruise ships. Other than flying or taking a cruise ship or having your own boat I don’t know many other ways to go. grandma Rosalie http://www12.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/

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>Hello everybody.  Hopefully some of you pros out there can help us. >We are destined for Ft. Lauderdale in late October and would love to >visit the Caribbean. >Can anybody please advise the most economical way to get to the Bahamas >or Jamaica from Florida?  Is there a ferry?  I know of the "Cat" that >sails that route but it is more pricey than airline travel!  Any other >possibilities? >Thanks a ton!

Right now in my market (NJ  EWR Newark Liberty Int Airport) Air Jamaica is advertising package deals on air and hotel. Since you don’t specify how long I’ll just mention the basics. There are 2 fly free 7 day starting at $939, and Companion Fly Free 7 day starting at $769.  This would mean skipping Ft. Lauderdale and going directly to Jamaica from your home airport.  If Ft. Lauderdale is not a destination in and of itself, you might want to check this out on Air Jamaica’s website. If your plans include several days in Ft. Lauderdale you might be able to hook-up with Air Jamaica there or Miami for an even better deal.   Just do it online a few months before you leave and make either FLL or MIA your start/return point. There are 1, 2 day cruises out of Port Everglades, or Port of Miami that do the Bahamas but I don’t see any savings there.  Take a look see if Gulfstream International still has flights to the Bahamas.  A few years ago they had 20 seat commuter jets or Beachcraft 1900 that flew that route.  Alternatively, you might consider a trip down the Keys.  NOAA classifies Key West as tropical/subtropical.  You can fly there or drive there.  I like the view from the air.  On a clear day you can see dolphins and sharks along with the outlines of coral reefs. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

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Hi. What’s your budget for flight + hotel? How many days do you plan to stay there? Consider buying a hotel + flight vacation packages because you will most likely be saving money by doing that ( and much more comfy as well ). If you’re staying for a shorter period of time ( especially during a weekend ), there are a lot of last minute weekend getaways that you can book for a very good price. Happy Travelin’ Aimee C. http://www.tropical-island-vacation.net

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> Hello everybody.  Hopefully some of you pros out there can help us. > We are destined for Ft. Lauderdale in late October and would love to > visit the Caribbean. > Can anybody please advise the most economical way to get to the Bahamas > or Jamaica from Florida?  Is there a ferry?  I know of the "Cat" that > sails that route but it is more pricey than airline travel!  Any other > possibilities? > Thanks a ton!

Chalk’s out of Lauderdale to New Providence (Paradise Island) runs about 200 bucks, but for more info you’d have to decide which Bahamas island(s) you wish to visit. Chalk’s services Walker’s Cay and Bimini as well. From Lauderdale there are only charter options left after that. Go down to Miami International though and the options expand to about 12 or 13 airlines to many of the Bahamas islands. And there are 7 or 8 options to Montego Bay/Kingston from both Ft Lauderdale or Miami. It’s the usual suspects that service much of the Caribbean…AJ, UA, CA, AA and I believe Air Tran now does some Caribbean service as well. I know they do from Miami but am not as sure about Lauderdale. By the way, Rosalie’s need to assert that the Bahamas are not in the Caribbean is something to be ignored. She’s standing on the point of a pin and acting the expert by telling you the Bahamas are not in the **Caribbean Sea**. But by any measure, cite or reference, not to mention general understanding, the Bahamas are in the Caribbean region, which is what most people, and I suspect you too, intend when the say "we’re going to the Caribbean for vacation".

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>By the way, Rosalie’s need to assert that the Bahamas are not in the >Caribbean is something to be ignored. She’s standing on the point of a pin >and acting the expert by telling you the Bahamas are not in the **Caribbean >Sea**. But by any measure, cite or reference, not to mention general >understanding, the Bahamas are in the Caribbean region, which is what most >people, and I suspect you too, intend when the say "we’re going to the >Caribbean for vacation".

I can’t speak for "most people" that you know, but most people I know are aware that the Bahamas are int he Atlantic Ocean.  If they’re going to the Bahamas, the say "We’re going to the Bahamas," or name the specific island.  If the say "We’re going to the Caribbean," they don’t mean the Bahamas.  In fact the Bahamas are more often grouped with Bermuda than with the Caribbean. But, of course, this makes NO difference to travel from Florida to the Bahamas. —       Charlie Hammond — Hewlett-Packard Company — Ft Lauderdale  FL  USA       All opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily my employer’s.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello everybody.  Hopefully some of you pros out there can help us. > We are destined for Ft. Lauderdale in late October and would love to > visit the Caribbean. > Can anybody please advise the most economical way to get to the Bahamas > or Jamaica from Florida?  Is there a ferry?  I know of the "Cat" that > sails that route but it is more pricey than airline travel!  Any other > possibilities? > Thanks a ton! >Chalk’s out of Lauderdale to New Providence (Paradise Island) runs about 200 >bucks, but for more info you’d have to decide which Bahamas island(s) you >wish to visit. Chalk’s services Walker’s Cay and Bimini as well. From >Lauderdale there are only charter options left after that. >Go down to Miami International though and the options expand to about 12 or >13 airlines to many of the Bahamas islands. And there are 7 or 8 options to >Montego Bay/Kingston from both Ft Lauderdale or Miami. It’s the usual >suspects that service much of the Caribbean…AJ, UA, CA, AA and I believe >Air Tran now does some Caribbean service as well. I know they do from Miami >but am not as sure about Lauderdale. >By the way, Rosalie’s need to assert that the Bahamas are not in the >Caribbean is something to be ignored. She’s standing on the point of a pin >and acting the expert by telling you the Bahamas are not in the **Caribbean >Sea**. But by any measure, cite or reference, not to mention general >understanding, the Bahamas are in the Caribbean region, which is what most >people, and I suspect you too, intend when the say "we’re going to the >Caribbean for vacation".

I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping Jamaica with the Bahamas.   I mean some people actually think that Florida is in the tropics.  October will probably still be pretty warm, but in the winter, it is definitely too cold to swim in the Bahamas, and that is because they are in the Atlantic. I don’t have any problem with including the Bahamas and Bermuda in this group because there’s really no better place for them to get information.  But they aren’t really even in the Caribbean region. It sounded to me as if he didn’t want to fly.  I wondered what the "Cat" that he knew about was because I don’t know of a ship that sails a route from Ft. Lauderdale to the Bahamas and Jamaica.  Do you? grandma Rosalie

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Well, if you lived where I lived, I am sure you would consider Southern Florida as tropical even if it isn’t officially categorized as such. Thank you to all who replied – we settled on our destination and our flight – from Miami to Jamaica.  Seemed reasonable enough when compared to the alternatives.

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>By the way, Rosalie’s need to assert that the Bahamas are not in the >Caribbean is something to be ignored. She’s standing on the point of a pin >and acting the expert by telling you the Bahamas are not in the >**Caribbean >Sea**. But by any measure, cite or reference, not to mention general >understanding, the Bahamas are in the Caribbean region, which is what most >people, and I suspect you too, intend when the say "we’re going to the >Caribbean for vacation". > I can’t speak for "most people" that you know, but most people I know > are aware that the Bahamas are int he Atlantic Ocean.

I didn’t say they weren’t in the Atlantic or that most people didn’t know that. I said they are in the Caribbean region, and the United Nations would seem to agree with me…. http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#americas as does the CIA, Frommers, Loney Planet and others: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/bf/ http://www.frommers.com/destinations/caribbean/  (See: Island Groups in The Caribbean) http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/categories/crbgeo.html http://www.lonelyplanet.com/worldguide/destinations/caribbean/ and so on, and so on. Not being in the Caribbean Sea, doesn’t mean they are not in the Caribbean. It means they are not in the Caribbean Sea. You are making the mistake of thinking the region is defined by the sea, when it is the sea that was named for the region. The Caribbean area was named after the indigenous indians the Spaniards found on the lands. The Caribbean Sea was named because it was a basin located within the Caribbean region. > If they’re going > to the Bahamas, the say "We’re going to the Bahamas," or name the > specific island.  If the say "We’re going to the Caribbean," they > don’t mean the Bahamas.

Right :^)

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> I don’t have any problem with including the Bahamas and Bermuda in > this group because there’s really no better place for them to get > information.  But they aren’t really even in the Caribbean region.

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#americas With reference to the Bahamas in particular….they have always been internationally recognized as being "in the Caribbean region". That goes back to the day of their discovery…at least as the white man defines the Spanish arrival on those shores. I am being a stickler on this only because my mother was raised there and for some reason, a few years back, it became fashionable amongst know-it-alls to tell people that the Bahamas were not in the Caribbean because they were not in the Caribbean Sea. And that is really just some faulty extrapolation proposed by some knucklehead somewhere that got picked up on the internet and became lore, for no other reason than it resonated like sound logic….as is often the case on the web. Bad information, cleverly proposed, always catches on in cyberspace. It never fails, and likely never will. > I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping > Jamaica with the Bahamas.

"lumping"? >  I mean some people actually think that > Florida is in the tropics.

Well, I wouldn’t argue that Florida isn’t in the tropics because some of the Caribbean Basin land mass isn’t either. But some of the Bahamas, like the T&C’s are indeed below 22N. > October will probably still be pretty > warm, but in the winter, it is definitely too cold to swim in the > Bahamas,

Well, if you consider that the waters of the Bahamas are much more than that found around Bimini, the Berrys, Abaco and Grand Bahama, your comment isn’t even 75% accurate. Most of the island chain is quite warm watered during the winter. Even New Providence is in large part as warm-watered as Jamaica, Cayman, T&C etc. during the winter months. It’s only further North where temps dive drastically during the winter. This has much more to do with predominant currents than it does what water mass surrounds the island chain. In any case…..the Bahamas are most certainly in the Caribbean. By any measure or reference you want to use, the Bahamas are part of the Caribbean region. It has been like this since the Spaniards mapped and named it, and that was before they called the waters south of Cuba the "Caribbean Sea". But all it took was one knucklehead (or maybe genius) to make a whole bunch of internet readers think otherwise by cleverly proposing something that is utterly inaccurate.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t have any problem with including the Bahamas and Bermuda in > this group because there’s really no better place for them to get > information.  But they aren’t really even in the Caribbean region. >http://unstats.un.org/unsd/methods/m49/m49regin.htm#americas >With reference to the Bahamas in particular….they have always been >internationally recognized as being "in the Caribbean region". That goes >back to the day of their discovery…at least as the white man defines the >Spanish arrival on those shores. >I am being a stickler on this only because my mother was raised there and >for some reason, a few years back, it became fashionable amongst >know-it-alls to tell people that the Bahamas were not in the Caribbean >because they were not in the Caribbean Sea. And that is really just some >faulty extrapolation proposed by some knucklehead somewhere that got picked >up on the internet and became lore, for no other reason than it resonated >like sound logic….as is often the case on the web. >Bad information, cleverly proposed, always catches on in cyberspace. It >never fails, and likely never will. > I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping > Jamaica with the Bahamas. >"lumping"?

I don’t think that Jamaica is in the least like the Bahamas.  Do you think it is? >  I mean some people actually think that > Florida is in the tropics. >Well, I wouldn’t argue that Florida isn’t in the tropics because some of the >Caribbean Basin land mass isn’t either. But some of the Bahamas, like the >T&C’s are indeed below 22N.

I had someone repeatedly email/comment to me that Key West wasn’t in the tropics, as if I had said it was, which I didn’t.  We lived in Key West for 3 years, and it got quite cold in the winter although it didn’t get below freezing.  Got down in the low 40s which is hardly what I think of as tropical. I have not been to T&C      and I’ve always thought of them as kind of separate from the rest of the Bahamas.  At least the charts for there are in a different book from the rest.  They are definitely farther south.  That kind of thing makes a difference.  Our temperatures are quite a bit different from those at my mom’s house and that is only 100 miles north of us. > October will probably still be pretty > warm, but in the winter, it is definitely too cold to swim in the > Bahamas, >Well, if you consider that the waters of the Bahamas are much more than that >found around Bimini, the Berrys, Abaco and Grand Bahama, your comment isn’t >even 75% accurate. Most of the island chain is quite warm watered during the >winter. Even New Providence is in large part as warm-watered as Jamaica, >Cayman, T&C etc. during the winter months. It’s only further North where

Well I haven’t been to Cayman or T&C, but I have been to Florida down to the Dry Tortugas, and the Bahamas to New Providence and down the Exuma chain in the winter (and to Bermuda in November), and the water was NOT warm when I was there.  I have pretty good natural thermal protection (fat) and I couldn’t stay in the water too long in Jan/Feb time frame.  The air was pretty temperate – sometimes even a bit too hot for me, but not the water.  The folks in Florida think that it is too cold to go to the Bahamas in the winter, except for fishing. >temps dive drastically during the winter. This has much more to do with >predominant currents than it does what water mass surrounds the island >chain. >In any case…..the Bahamas are most certainly in the Caribbean. By any >measure or reference you want to use, the Bahamas are part of the Caribbean >region. It has been like this since the Spaniards mapped and named it, and >that was before they called the waters south of Cuba the "Caribbean Sea". >But all it took was one knucklehead (or maybe genius) to make a whole bunch >of internet readers think otherwise by cleverly proposing something that is >utterly inaccurate.

Well I guess that is your opinion of it.  All I know is that the water is much colder there  November to March than it is in the Virgin Islands, Cozumel or Belize. grandma Rosalie

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>> I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping >> Jamaica with the Bahamas. >"lumping"? > I don’t think that Jamaica is in the least like the Bahamas.  Do you > think it is?

If I told you I was thinking of visiting New York city or maybe Miami, would you immediately assume I thought them the same? > We lived in Key > West for 3 years, and it got quite cold in the winter although it > didn’t get below freezing.  Got down in the low 40s which is hardly > what I think of as tropical.

Key West averages are no less than 70 degrees…..January being the coldest month of the year. Low 40’s for any duration whatsoever would be an extreme exception rather than the norm. > I have not been to T&C and I’ve always thought of them as kind of > separate from the rest of the Bahamas.

They are indeed a different country. > At least the charts for there > are in a different book from the rest.  They are definitely farther > south.

Actually the Bahamas southernmost islands extended further south than where the T&C’s sit. Both Little and Great Inagua are south of T&C and below 22N…making them tropical by geography.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping >>> Jamaica with the Bahamas. >>"lumping"? > I don’t think that Jamaica is in the least like the Bahamas.  Do you > think it is? >If I told you I was thinking of visiting New York city or maybe Miami, would >you immediately assume I thought them the same?

Depends on how you said it.  Those two places have little in common except they are both cities on the east coast.  I would think you were pretty clueless to be trying to decide between those two cities unless you gave me a reason  why you particularly wanted to go there — not so much NYC because lots of people want to go there, but I would wonder about Miami.  Now if you said Orlando and NYC, I would understand (although not agree). > We lived in Key > West for 3 years, and it got quite cold in the winter although it > didn’t get below freezing.  Got down in the low 40s which is hardly > what I think of as tropical. >Key West averages are no less than 70 degrees…..January being the coldest

The mean temperature for Key West in January and February 1966 (the first year I lived there) was 68.8 deg F and in February 1967 it was 68.2, and in Feb 1969 it was 67.9  These are all less than 70 deg F, and February was colder than January.  I lived there then.  The temperatures were sometimes in the 40s. >month of the year. Low 40’s for any duration whatsoever would be an extreme >exception rather than the norm.

Averages have very little to do with the day to day temperatures and are pretty misleading in that respect   And whether the temperatures are for any duration doesn’t really matter.  If you are on a vacation and are cold tonight, the fact that next week will be warmer is not much comfort if you don’t have appropriate clothing.   I was in New Orleans last December and the fact that the temperature average for December was 54 deg F didn’t help me when the temperature went down to 34 deg F. > I have not been to T&C and I’ve always thought of them as kind of > separate from the rest of the Bahamas. >They are indeed a different country.

Well that’s what I thought, but you seemed to be indicating that they were the same. > At least the charts for there > are in a different book from the rest.  They are definitely farther > south. >Actually the Bahamas southernmost islands extended further south than where >the T&C’s sit. Both Little and Great Inagua are south of T&C and below >22N…making them tropical by geography.

I think the south end of Andros may also be below 22N, but Key West and the Dry Tortugas are up above 24N, and so are the two big tourist destinations in the Bahamas – Freeport and Nassau. grandma Rosalie

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>I mentioned it because the original post seemed so clueless in lumping >>>>Jamaica with the Bahamas. >>>"lumping"? >>I don’t think that Jamaica is in the least like the Bahamas.  Do you >>think it is? >If I told you I was thinking of visiting New York city or maybe Miami, would >you immediately assume I thought them the same? >Depends on how you said it.  Those two places have little in common >except they are both cities on the east coast.  I would think you were >pretty clueless to be trying to decide between those two cities unless >you gave me a reason  why you particularly wanted to go there — not >so much NYC because lots of people want to go there, but I would >wonder about Miami.  Now if you said Orlando and NYC, I would >understand (although not agree). >>We lived in Key >>West for 3 years, and it got quite cold in the winter although it >>didn’t get below freezing.  Got down in the low 40s which is hardly >>what I think of as tropical. >Key West averages are no less than 70 degrees…..January being the coldest >The mean temperature for Key West in January and February 1966 (the >first year I lived there) was 68.8 deg F and in February 1967 it was >68.2, and in Feb 1969 it was 67.9  These are all less than 70 deg F, >and February was colder than January.  I lived there then.  The >temperatures were sometimes in the 40s. >month of the year. Low 40’s for any duration whatsoever would be an extreme >exception rather than the norm. >Averages have very little to do with the day to day temperatures and >are pretty misleading in that respect   And whether the temperatures >are for any duration doesn’t really matter.  If you are on a vacation >and are cold tonight, the fact that next week will be warmer is not >much comfort if you don’t have appropriate clothing.   >I was in New Orleans last December and the fact that the temperature >average for December was 54 deg F didn’t help me when the temperature >went down to 34 deg F. >>I have not been to T&C and I’ve always thought of them as kind of >>separate from the rest of the Bahamas. >They are indeed a different country. >Well that’s what I thought, but you seemed to be indicating that they >were the same. >>At least the charts for there >>are in a different book from the rest.  They are definitely farther >>south. >Actually the Bahamas southernmost islands extended further south than where >the T&C’s sit. Both Little and Great Inagua are south of T&C and below >22N…making them tropical by geography. >I think the south end of Andros may also be below 22N, but Key West >and the Dry Tortugas are up above 24N, and so are the two big tourist >destinations in the Bahamas – Freeport and Nassau. >grandma Rosalie

Basic geography stipulates that the Bahamas are not Caribbean Islands because they are not in the Caribbean. It doesn’t matter how the UN classifies them.  I don’t think the UN makes it’s designation solely on geography but may be taking demographic – economic factors into consideration.  Saying that the Bahamas are Caribbean makes about as much sense as saying that Harrisburg, Pa is part of the Eastern Seaboard. As for Tropical, Subtropical.  More is taken into consideration than temperature.  The classification involves weather patterns, humidity, rainfall and water temperature.  Typically, tropical environments are characterized by rainy and dry seasons.  Also, another feature of the designation is based on what will grow there year round with little or no assistance from humans.  While the rest of the Keys may not be classified as tropical, NOAA does make this classification for Key West and the Dry Tortugas. Did you know that, botanically, Victoria BC is classified as subtropical/tropical?  The coast from Seattle North to parts of Alaska is designated as coniferous rain forest? We can look at the travel industry’s marketing the Bahamas, Key West and some other locations that are not as Caribbean.  Caribbean is used as a buzz word to signify: "warm when it’s cold where you live",  "warm water you can just step in with hardly any waves",  "exotic flora and fauna to you but not to the locals", and food that is "island".  Also this one word conveys that men can wear Hawaiian shirts even if they aren’t in Hawaii and not feel out of place.  So I am with Rosalie on her statement about the Bahamas because it’s geographically correct. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

> So I am with Rosalie on her statement about the Bahamas because it’s > geographically correct.

And after all that, you are incorrect on equal level with Rosalie. Even she knows it, but having been something less than kind to the OP she is not particularly ready at this moment to admit ti it. I’ve read Rosalie on other ng’s and I know, she knows, the truth of it all :^). The Caribbean is defined by the islands the Caribs (and their subsequent lineage) inhabited. It’s the cultural and historical similarities that establish the region, not some simplistic notion that the sea is the determining factor. Like I said: faulty information, cleverly put, will always sell. But enough of all this….if you wish to be wrong, that is of course your perogative.

Response:

> Basic geography stipulates that the Bahamas are not Caribbean Islands > because they are not in the Caribbean. It doesn’t matter how the UN > classifies them.  I don’t think the UN makes it’s designation solely on > geography but may be taking demographic – economic factors into > consideration.  Saying that the Bahamas are Caribbean makes about as > much sense as saying that Harrisburg, Pa is part of the Eastern Seaboard.

Politically, economically and culturally The Bahamas is Caribbean. So even though it is not in the Caribbean Sea it is Caribbean. I looked at some sources like the Wikopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean and it lists The Bahamas as an island territory the Caribbean and I agree with that listing even though The Bahamas is north of the Caribbean Sea. — Charles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Basic geography stipulates that the Bahamas are not Caribbean Islands >because they are not in the Caribbean. It doesn’t matter how the UN >classifies them.  I don’t think the UN makes it’s designation solely on >geography but may be taking demographic – economic factors into >consideration.  Saying that the Bahamas are Caribbean makes about as >much sense as saying that Harrisburg, Pa is part of the Eastern Seaboard. >Politically, economically and culturally The Bahamas is Caribbean. So >even though it is not in the Caribbean Sea it is Caribbean. I looked at >some sources like the Wikopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribbean >and it lists The Bahamas as an island territory the Caribbean and I >agree with that listing even though The Bahamas is north of the >Caribbean Sea.

Funny thing in the very same Wikipedia searching for "Caribbean Islands" I find this: "The region known is "Caribbean" is usually restricted to the islands of the Caribbean Sea…"  So much for me being "wrong". "The New York Times" style book specifies "Caribbean Islands" as being those islands in the Caribbean. They didn’t get to be the "newspaper of record" by selling a lot of papers with misinformation.  It’s a reliable source. As such, I stand my my original assertion. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

Response:

You should have a passport! Not so much to get into Jamaica, but to get back into your country! Redlocks

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. > That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe > islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

Response:

> Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. > That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe > islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

It’s not a rumor. http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.html New Requirements for Travelers Between the United States and the Western Hemisphere Travelers to and from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Panama, Mexico and Canada will be required to have a passport or other secure, accepted document to enter or re-enter the United States.  This is a change from prior travel requirements and will affect  all United States citizens entering the United States from countries within the Western Hemisphere who do not currently possess  valid passports.   This new requirement will also affect certain foreign nationals who currently are not required to present a passport to travel  to the United States.  Most Canadian citizens, citizens of the British Overseas Territory of Bermuda, and to a lesser degree, Mexican citizens will be affected by the implementation of this requirement. http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2224.html Proposed Timeline for Implementation for Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative Requirements The travel initiative requirements will be rolled out in phases, providing as much advance notice as possible to the affected  public to enable them to meet the terms of the new guidelines.   The proposed implementation timeline is as follows:       December 31, 2005 – Passport or other accepted document required for all travel (air/sea) to or from the Caribbean, Bermuda, Central and South  America.       December 31, 2006 – Passport or other accepted document required for all air and sea travel to or from Mexico and Canada.       December 31, 2007 – Passport or other accepted document required for all air, sea and land border crossings.

Response:

>Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. >That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe >islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

Does a Jamaican need a p/p to get into the US. If so, why don’t you need one to get into Jamaica …. or do your Immigration folks accept a drivers licence? — TomW Dorset/UK

Response:

>>Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. >That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe >islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA >Does a Jamaican need a p/p to get into the US. If so, why don’t you need >one to get into Jamaica …. or do your Immigration folks accept a >drivers licence?

It isn’t to get INTO Jamaica or the Caribbean.  It is to get out of and back into the US.  IOW, it is OUR rule that US citizens have to have a passport to travel to those places, not Jamaica’s rule. grandma Rosalie

Response:

What’s the big deal about a passport? Considering the tenor of the times, it’s a rather benign way to try and keed a lid on the fringe maniacs out there and it’s something you should have anyway. This is just the first step in tourist control. Soon enough you’ll need a passport for any out-of-country trip and if that’s the worst thing those of us who like to travel have to do, it seems like a bargain to me. I’m not much on giving up my freedoms–I think the Patriot Act stinks–but this is really a minor thing.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. > That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe > islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

Response:

Starting in december.  Just get one . It’s painless and not expensive over 10 years

Response:

Does the US really care who comes into the US?  We have thousands every day crossing illegally, We let A-rabs run loose so they can plot terror attacks instead of putting them in camps. What difference do a few jamaicans make. They work multiple jobs anyway

Response:

Thank you all for your replies.It’s is not easy to get a passport when you owe the state back $$$.I guess myself and husband won’t be traveling to the caribbean anytime soon

Response:

Damn — you owe back taxes and you are thinking of a trip to the caribbean – you must be from Texas!

Response:

>Thank you all for your replies.It’s is not easy to get a passport when >you owe the state back $$$.I guess myself and husband won’t be traveling >to the caribbean anytime soon

Go before December 31st and you won’t have to have one. grandma Rosalie

Response:

>Thank you all for your replies.It’s is not easy to get a passport when >you owe the state back $$$.I guess myself and husband won’t be traveling >to the caribbean anytime soon > Go before December 31st and you won’t have to have one. > grandma Rosalie

Why not use the money for your trip to pay the taxes you owe?  The rest of us have to pay our taxes – why shouldn’t you?

Response:

>Thank you all for your replies.It’s is not easy to get a passport when >you owe the state back $$$.I guess myself and husband won’t be traveling >to the caribbean anytime soon

Actually, now is the time to visit the Caribbean or anywhere outside the US, if you think you will have some problems getting a passport..  The passport requirement doesn’t go into effect until January 1, 2006.  But do keep in mind that some cruise lines already are in compliance with the requirement. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->What’s the big deal about a passport? Considering the tenor of the times, >it’s a rather benign way to try and keed a lid on the fringe maniacs out >there and it’s something you should have anyway. This is just the first step >in tourist control. Soon enough you’ll need a passport for any >out-of-country trip and if that’s the worst thing those of us who like to >travel have to do, it seems like a bargain to me. I’m not much on giving up >my freedoms–I think the Patriot Act stinks–but this is really a minor >thing. >Is this an awful rumor or is it true…. >That down the road you will need a passport to get to Jamaica and othe >islands in the caribbean? If so when? TIA

Some cruise lines and airlines already require a passport.  Also, if you look at  travel.state.gov you’ll see that there are already a number of countries where a passport is needed for US citizens to be repatriated. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

People paid to go to Bermuda then got shanghaied to nova scotia!!! No apology, no offer of refund. Passengers should have mutinied and taken the ship.  Royal caribbean sure has some nerve

Response:

> People paid to go to Bermuda then got shanghaied to nova scotia!!! > No apology, no offer of refund. Passengers should have mutinied and > taken the ship.  Royal caribbean sure has some nerve

Were you one of them? — "Remember there’s a big difference between kneeling down and bending over.." -Frank Zappa

Response:

> People paid to go to Bermuda then got shanghaied to nova scotia!!! > No apology, no offer of refund. Passengers should have mutinied and > taken the ship.  Royal caribbean sure has some nerve

They went to Canada on Voyager because of the predictions about the hurricane from the weather services. There was no choice but to divert because safety is paramount. It also turned out the predictions were wrong but the cruise line can’t second guess those. They have to take what was given. It was a five day cruise so there was no alternative but Canada. Certainly a bummer not going to Bermuda but people pay good money to cruise to Canada, they can be among the highest fares, so it is not like they cruised to someplace bad. — Charles

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> People paid to go to Bermuda then got shanghaied to nova scotia!!! > No apology, no offer of refund. Passengers should have mutinied and > taken the ship.  Royal caribbean sure has some nerve > They went to Canada on Voyager because of the predictions about the > hurricane from the weather services. There was no choice but to divert > because safety is paramount. It also turned out the predictions were > wrong but the cruise line can’t second guess those. They have to take > what was given. It was a five day cruise so there was no alternative > but Canada. Certainly a bummer not going to Bermuda but people pay good > money to cruise to Canada, they can be among the highest fares, so it > is not like they cruised to someplace bad.

The predictions weren’t exactly wrong. Prudent captains don’t sail into a known storm. Franklin didn’t become a hurricane, but passengers wouldn’t have liked the motion from 50+ knot winds. Almost guarantee that there’s some clause in their ticket that covers this sort of thing. And what’s it matter to cruise sheeple where they go, anyway? Do even 10% actually get off the boat? — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux (‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan’s Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Response:

They did not uphold their part of the contract.  People should have been given the choice of a different cruise date or a refund.  If I’m paying for a flight to LA I dont expect to end up in Rome. > There was no choice but to divert

because safety is paramount.<< Why the f*** would anyone pay to go to canada?  There’s nothing worthwhile there to see at least for the high price of a cruise. Plus the weather was cold and rainy —  not exactly what people expected.  I’m going to Bahamas next month and paid for that. I would be pissed if I ended up in chicago.  I will NEVER use R.C. cruises after this stunt. I can only urge everyone to boycott this type of company that cant honor a committment or do right. >It was a five day cruise so there was no alternative

but Canada. Certainly a bummer not going to Bermuda but people pay good money to cruise to Canada, they can be among the highest fares, so it is not like they cruised to someplace bad. <<

Response:

> Almost guarantee that there’s some clause in their ticket that covers > this sort of thing. And what’s it matter to cruise sheeple where they > go, anyway? Do even 10% actually get off the boat?

Probably 85% get off of the ship. 100% on cruises to Bermuda. And cruises to Bermuda are different than Caribbean cruises. The ship stays overnight for four days and is being used as a hotel. It is a good value as the prices of hotels in Bermuda are high. Quite a few, probably most book because of itinerary. Only a minority (like me) book because we like the ocean, being at sea, and care less about itinerary. — Charles

Response:

> They did not uphold their part of the contract.  People should have > been given the choice of a different cruise date or a refund.  If I’m > paying for a flight to LA I dont expect to end up in Rome.

You obviously have never read a cruise contract. They don’t guarantee any port and state they can change the itinerary. You book a cruise, not a destination. > Why the f*** would anyone pay to go to canada?  There’s nothing > worthwhile there to see at least for the high price of a cruise.

Lots of people think otherwise and books cruises to Canada every year. > I will NEVER use R.C. cruises after this stunt. I can only urge > everyone to boycott this type of company that cant honor a > committment or do right.

They won’t miss you. Bookings are at all time highs. — Charles

Response:

No I haven’t . Cruises never interested me- why be on a boat with 2000 Americans for days when I can fly somewhere and enjoy another culture and experience new things. After seeing how ridiculous Royal Caribbean is and how they dont understand  doing right by customers I will doubtful ever take a cruise.  What kind of boneheads would signup if they can take you any where they want. What if the cruise line decides to just anchor off the NJ coast for 5 days?  Boycott Royal Caribbean until they give refunds!!! >You obviously have never read a cruise contract. They don’t guarantee

any port and state they can change the itinerary. You book a cruise, not a destination. <<

Response:

If cruises don’t interest you, why are you trying to create such a to-do about something you have nothing to do with and is clearly stated as a possibile outcome in any cruise line’s contract? — lovetravel

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>People paid to go to Bermuda then got shanghaied to nova scotia!!! >>No apology, no offer of refund. Passengers should have mutinied and >>taken the ship.  Royal caribbean sure has some nerve >They went to Canada on Voyager because of the predictions about the >hurricane from the weather services. There was no choice but to divert >because safety is paramount. It also turned out the predictions were >wrong but the cruise line can’t second guess those. They have to take >what was given. It was a five day cruise so there was no alternative >but Canada. Certainly a bummer not going to Bermuda but people pay good >money to cruise to Canada, they can be among the highest fares, so it >is not like they cruised to someplace bad. >The predictions weren’t exactly wrong. Prudent captains don’t sail into >a known storm. Franklin didn’t become a hurricane, but passengers >wouldn’t have liked the motion from 50+ knot winds. >Almost guarantee that there’s some clause in their ticket that covers >this sort of thing. And what’s it matter to cruise sheeple where they >go, anyway? Do even 10% actually get off the boat?

Jere, I do both land based and cruise vacations.  I resent being referred to as "cruise sheeple".  True cruising is part of the travel experience, and I have been on "cruise to nowhere" cruises just for the experience of being on a given ship. However, I am the same person who goes on land vacations.  I like to do some "touristy’ things and some off the beaten path things.  If I make reservations to stay at a certain hotel, I’m not going to be happy if my hotel gets changed on me. If it is done so for my safety, I will understand but I’ll still be disappointed. Likewise, if I book a cruise to Bermuda or Grand Cayman it means I did some research on the destination.  If that destination is changed for safety  reasons, I’ll understand but I can still be disappointed that I didn’t get to go where I planed on going. Both cruising and land vacations are valid ways to vacation and learn something of the world.  Whichever is better for you is fine with me.   But I really am rubbed wrong by the arrogance of some people who have to put someone else down to justify their travel choice, be it cruising or land based. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

>If cruises don’t interest you, why are you trying to create such a to-do >about something you have nothing to do with and is clearly stated as a >possibile outcome in any cruise line’s contract?

It’s the LOBLITS ( Little Old Bluehaired Lady in  Tennis Sneakers syndrome).  You know the type.  They can be any gender or any age but their personality is best represented by SNL’s "Church Lady".  They meddle in things they know nothing about and act all sanctimonious and judgemental.  To boot they can’t even get things in the right newsgroup.  Bermuda is NOT IN THE CARIBBEAN!  This whole rant belongs over in rec.travel.cruising! I don’t know  Jabario now who could it be? Who could have motivated you to post here?  Could it be SATAN? —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

Response:

> I do both land based and cruise vacations.  I resent being referred to > as "cruise sheeple".  True cruising is part of the travel experience, > and I have been on "cruise to nowhere" cruises just for the experience > of being on a given ship. However, I am the same person who goes on land > vacations.  I like to do some "touristy’ things and some off the beaten > path things.  If I make reservations to stay at a certain hotel, I’m not > going to be happy if my hotel gets changed on me. If it is done so for > my safety, I will understand but I’ll still be disappointed.

I suspect you’re an unusual cruise ship person, thus not one of the sheeple. I’m sure you’ve seen what happens to a idyllic location as the hordes descend for their hour or two. — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux (‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan’s Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I do both land based and cruise vacations.  I resent being referred to > as "cruise sheeple".  True cruising is part of the travel experience, > and I have been on "cruise to nowhere" cruises just for the experience > of being on a given ship. However, I am the same person who goes on land > vacations.  I like to do some "touristy’ things and some off the beaten > path things.  If I make reservations to stay at a certain hotel, I’m not > going to be happy if my hotel gets changed on me. If it is done so for > my safety, I will understand but I’ll still be disappointed. > I suspect you’re an unusual cruise ship person, thus not one of the > sheeple. I’m sure you’ve seen what happens to a idyllic location as the > hordes descend for their hour or two. > — > Jere Lull > Xan-a-Deux (‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) > Xan’s Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html > Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Response:

We were on this cruise.  The lack of customer service on the part of Royal Caribbean was beyond belief.  First, our captain mentioned that Royal Caribbean reached the decision to reroute the cruise on Friday afternoon.  Yet, it was not posted to their web site until very late Saturday evening / early Sunday morning.  Makes you wonder why it was not communicated on a timely basis.  There was a couple who were to be married on board.  Royal Caribbean did not even bother to contact them.  They learned of the rescheduling upon arrival for the cruise.  Mean while, their wedding guests were flying to Bermuda to meet them…  At an open forum with the captain, the bride noted that Royal Caribbean did not even buy the couple a drink.  Please also note that Candian cruises are less expensive than cruises to Bermuda, yet no refund. Royal Caribbean’s attitude was to ignore the situation, until hundreds of guests insisted on a meeting with the captain.  His attitude was one of being impervious to it all – evidently too important to conduct a substantive conversation with lowly passengers.

Response:

> And what’s it matter to cruise sheeple where they > go, anyway? Do even 10% actually get off the boat?

It’s been a while since you cruised, hasn’t it Jere? — "Remember there’s a big difference between kneeling down and bending over.." -Frank Zappa

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I do both land based and cruise vacations.  I resent being referred to >as "cruise sheeple".  True cruising is part of the travel experience, >and I have been on "cruise to nowhere" cruises just for the experience >of being on a given ship. However, I am the same person who goes on land >vacations.  I like to do some "touristy’ things and some off the beaten >path things.  If I make reservations to stay at a certain hotel, I’m not >going to be happy if my hotel gets changed on me. If it is done so for >my safety, I will understand but I’ll still be disappointed. >I suspect you’re an unusual cruise ship person, thus not one of the >sheeple. I’m sure you’ve seen what happens to a idyllic location as the >hordes descend for their hour or two.

The same thing can happen when hordes of tourists descend on a travel destination.  BTW My sister is currently on a Baltic cruise one of the ports-of-call is St. Petersburg and the ship stays there for 2 days to give all the pax a chance to see and do everything.  I’ve been to some ports-of-call where the ship arrived at  6:00 am, the gangways were available at 8 am and the ship sailed at 11:30 pm — hardly 2 hours. Obviously, you don’t have much experience cruising…or maybe have been on the wrong lines.  On my last Western Caribbean cruise 2 of my dinner table mates rented a jeep and driver.  They went off-road exploring of Mayan ruins and found an isolated beach on the windward side of Cozumel.  To look at them, you wouldn’t think these 60-something folk were the adventure type. My other table mates took the ferry to Playa del Carmen and visited with friends. Cruise passengers are as varied and unique in their interests as are land based tourists.  Check out some of the threads in rec.travel.cruising You can’t have an idyllic place that provides five star lodging and restrict access. The only place I know where that happens is at certain US State Park camp grounds and cabins.  If someone posts about idyllic spot A here on the internet, others are going to go there and tell their friends.  Before you know it "Bob’s your uncle!"  When the Dutch first set up digs on Manhattan Island it too was an idyllic spot. When word got out about "New Amsterdam"  a whole bunch of people decided to check it out and stay.  The end result in New York City more frenzied than idyllic but folks still keep coming.  You can’t really blame any one group for wanting to experience a place.  Destinations can’t developer a tourist economy without tourists. Why blame cruisers?  You could just as easily blame Spring Breakers or the Shriners for what has happened to Ft. Lauderdale,  Miami,  Key West, Cancun, or Costa Rica.  What about big pharmaceutical money or defense contractors taking Senators and Congressmen for a little R&R?  That’s just Spring Break in respectable "red state" clothing.  You see, once you start pointing the finger of blame at any one group, it’ll eventually bite you in the ass and wind up pointing right back at you.   So I choose not to blame any of these groups. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I do both land based and cruise vacations.  I resent being referred to >>as "cruise sheeple".  True cruising is part of the travel experience, >>and I have been on "cruise to nowhere" cruises just for the experience >>of being on a given ship. However, I am the same person who goes on land >>vacations.  I like to do some "touristy’ things and some off the beaten >>path things.  If I make reservations to stay at a certain hotel, I’m not >>going to be happy if my hotel gets changed on me. If it is done so for >>my safety, I will understand but I’ll still be disappointed. >I suspect you’re an unusual cruise ship person, thus not one of the >sheeple. I’m sure you’ve seen what happens to a idyllic location as the >hordes descend for their hour or two.

I had not been on a cruise since 1950 when my family and I went from New York to Europe when I was 12.  I was very disparaging of cruise sheeple when I saw them descending on various ports.   Then I booked a cruise to Bermuda because – as I said previously – the cruise was cheaper than flying (even with rock bottom prices) and staying on the island even in the cheapest accommodations.   I would far rather have flown and stayed.   On the way over (this was in mid November) we hit some rough weather and the only problem with that was that if I did any reading, I got a headache, and it was too rough to have the pool filled.  On the way back it was like a mill pond, and frankly I would rather have it rough because the dining rooms etc were far less crowded. Basically, I found that while I was in Bermuda, I became a sheeple. Not as much as some other people maybe, because I’ve been to Bermuda before, and I had done research and I had a schedule of things I wanted to see and do, and even though I ate most meals on shore.     I think the whole process of cruising – concentrating on the amenities of the ship and the food on the ship and the service on the ship makes one focus on the ship to the extent that the places that one visits are secondary.  And the people for whom the food, service etc are of primary importance are in most cases not the kind of people with whom I have much in common because I think their priorities are wrong.  I think the destination should be primary, and the ship just the mode of transportation by which I get there.  Maybe more important than a plane, but not a lot. >The same thing can happen when hordes of tourists descend on a travel >destination.  BTW My sister is currently on a Baltic cruise one of the >ports-of-call is St. Petersburg and the ship stays there for 2 days to >give all the pax a chance to see and do everything.  I’ve been to some >ports-of-call where the ship arrived at  6:00 am, the gangways were >available at 8 am and the ship sailed at 11:30 pm — hardly 2 hours.

Yes – that’s a problem.  But the big ships with those kinds of schedules are more of a problem than any Spring Breakers because they are concentrated in time and place.. >Obviously, you don’t have much experience cruising…or maybe have been >on the wrong lines.  On my last Western Caribbean cruise 2 of my dinner >table mates rented a jeep and driver.  They went off-road exploring of >Mayan ruins and found an isolated beach on the windward side of >Cozumel.  To look at them, you wouldn’t think these 60-something folk >were the adventure type. My other table mates took the ferry to Playa >del Carmen and visited with friends. >Cruise passengers are as varied and unique in their interests as are >land based tourists.  Check out some of the threads in rec.travel.cruising

It is true that cruise ship passengers are varied.  But if 8 big ships come to St. Thomas on the same day, or if 5 of them come to Key West, it is going to be excessively crowded.  When it is excessively crowded, any and all bad behavior becomes more terrible and the ‘good’ passengers, even though they are probably the majority are all overshadowed by the ones that are ignorant, xenophobic, loud, obnoxious and drunk.   >You can’t have an idyllic place that provides five star lodging and >restrict access.

If the place provides 5 star lodging, the fact that it is 5 star DOES restrict access to those people that can pay for it. >The only place I know where that happens is at certain >US State Park camp grounds and cabins.  

Do you mean US parks, or state parks.  Most of the time a camp ground isn’t a 5 star lodging, and most of the restrictions are to keep the crowds from destroying the reason that we have the parks in the first place.  Monteverde in Costa Rica is one place I know that also restricts access. >If someone posts about idyllic >spot A here on the internet, others are going to go there and tell their >friends.  Before you know it "Bob’s your uncle!"  When the Dutch first >set up digs on Manhattan Island it too was an idyllic spot. When word >got out about "New Amsterdam"  a whole bunch of people decided to check >it out and stay.  The end result in New York City more frenzied than >idyllic but folks still keep coming.  You can’t really blame any one >group for wanting to experience a place.  Destinations can’t developer a >tourist economy without tourists.

This is a red herring. There’s a difference between tourists who come and stay and eat and do things at a location, one or two or 4 at a time even if there are a lot of them, and a ship that dumps a couple hundred people to roam the town for a couple of hours, buy a few trinkets, and do not stay in the location or eat meals there. Plus the ship’s staff and the ship excursions may make things worse. For instance, to have the cruise director tell people who visit Cozumel that it is unsafe to go off the main drag because the stores there give them a kickback (and to show videos of Mexico City crime problems as an example) and for the people on the ship to absolutely believe this is wrong.   >Why blame cruisers?  You could just as easily blame Spring Breakers or >the Shriners for what has happened to Ft. Lauderdale,  Miami,  Key West, >Cancun, or Costa Rica.  What about big pharmaceutical money or defense >contractors taking Senators and Congressmen for a little R&R?  That’s >just Spring Break in respectable "red state" clothing.  You see, once >you start pointing the finger of blame at any one group, it’ll >eventually bite you in the ass and wind up pointing right back at you.   >So I choose not to blame any of these groups.

Spring Breakers are restricted to a short period of time, but spread over a large area. Congress persons and the like are not very numerous. I choose to look at my own behavior which is the only real thing that I have control over.  It is very hard to resist being a sheeple.  I don’t exempt myself from that charge.  I don’t think that it is a desirable state and I don’t think that it is easy to avoid. grandma Rosalie

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> > And what’s it matter to cruise sheeple where they > go, anyway? Do even 10% actually get off the boat? > It’s been a while since you cruised, hasn’t it Jere?

And a very long time before I do that again. — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux (‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan’s Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

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> I choose to look at my own behavior which is the only real thing that > I have control over.  It is very hard to resist being a sheeple.  I > don’t exempt myself from that charge.  I don’t think that it is a > desirable state and I don’t think that it is easy to avoid. > grandma Rosalie

Wow! I can think of no one less likely to succumb than you, but you describe how easy it is to fall into the different norms of that type of cruiser. — Jere Lull Xan-a-Deux (‘73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD) Xan’s Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

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> Royal Caribbean’s attitude was to ignore the situation, until hundreds > of guests insisted on a meeting with the captain.  His attitude was one > of being impervious to it all – evidently too important to conduct a > substantive conversation with lowly passengers.

NY, this happens every year, ships cruising to Bermuda are diverted to New England or Canada when there are storms.  Sorry your travel agent did not warn you. Check out this article on Cruisemates: http://www.cruisemates.com/articles/consumer/Hurricanes.cfm "Plan for the possibility that the itinerary you booked may not take place exactly as scheduled. The simplest change is heading east if the storm is going west, or vice versa. Or, from New York City during the summer, you may wind up in New England instead of Bermuda. This happens at times, and maintaining a spirit of flexibility is important. This is also a time when it pays to stay in touch. You

Hello Everyone!  A group of friends (including me) have begun thinking about an upcoming birthday – we tend to celebrate in wonderful places, the "big" ones!  We had thought about a cruise but I know I’ve decided that I believe the complete "island" experience would be much more special.  But now the question is where?  There’s about 6 of us of differing ages and even the near sixty year old is more like 40.  We love to have fun – sometimes staying up to the wee hours laughing like crazy but we’re not rowdy so we also don’t want to stay somewhere where we’ll feel restrained.  But each of us also treasures tranquility. So we’re looking for laid back atmosphere, music, on the beach (ah, that white sugar sand!), snorkeling, sailing, maybe hiking – but mostly water stuff.  We’re thinking Negril.  Any recommendations from any of you, please?  We would really appreciate any ideas and suggestions anyone might offer. Thanks! From a very land-locked being of the desert . . .

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Negril is beautiful.  Been there several times.  Grand Lido is best. Also, check out Costa Rica (yeah, I know it isn’t an Island).  You want to go to the Northwest Coast (not the Caribbean coast).  Check out Melia Playa Conchal (has a different name now) Paradisus Playa conchal?  Wonderful country, small, friendly people, clean, you can drink the water, inexpensive.  Not great snorkeling, but good beaches, sailing, fishing, monkeys, wild parrots, volcanoes.   We drove from the SE of the Country to the NW on the Pacific side in one day. Do a post if you want more info. Pura Vida, G.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello Everyone!  A group of friends (including me) have begun thinking > about an upcoming birthday – we tend to celebrate in wonderful places, > the "big" ones!  We had thought about a cruise but I know I’ve decided > that I believe the complete "island" experience would be much more > special.  But now the question is where?  There’s about 6 of us of > differing ages and even the near sixty year old is more like 40.  We > love to have fun – sometimes staying up to the wee hours laughing like > crazy but we’re not rowdy so we also don’t want to stay somewhere where > we’ll feel restrained.  But each of us also treasures tranquility. So > we’re looking for laid back atmosphere, music, on the beach (ah, that > white sugar sand!), snorkeling, sailing, maybe hiking – but mostly > water stuff.  We’re thinking Negril.  Any recommendations from any of > you, please?  We would really appreciate any ideas and suggestions > anyone might offer. > Thanks! From a very land-locked being of the desert . . .

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Negril is beautiful.  Been there several times.  Grand Lido is best. >Also, check out Costa Rica (yeah, I know it isn’t an Island).  You want to >go to the Northwest Coast (not the Caribbean coast).  Check out Melia Playa >Conchal (has a different name now) Paradisus Playa conchal?  Wonderful >country, small, friendly people, clean, you can drink the water, >inexpensive.  Not great snorkeling, but good beaches, sailing, fishing, >monkeys, wild parrots, volcanoes.   We drove from the SE of the Country to >the NW on the Pacific side in one day. >Do a post if you want more info. >Pura Vida, >G.

G. – thank you so much!  I found this Paradisus . . .  and you are quite right – very beautiful.  I’ve put this out there to the group and we shall see.  Just as long as we don’t have quiet because someone’s 6 year old is already in bed for the night!  And yet, not be kept awake until the sun rises either.  Picky?  it’s going to be grand no matter what, I can tell.  Again, thank you very much. H — Sent via Travel Newsgroups http://www.travelnewsgroups.com

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> Negril is beautiful.  Been there several times.  Grand Lido is best. > Also, check out Costa Rica (yeah, I know it isn’t an Island).  You want to > go to the Northwest Coast (not the Caribbean coast).  Check out Melia Playa > Conchal (has a different name now) Paradisus Playa conchal?  

That’s the very place I have picked out for our 25th in October if we don’t go to Gran Porto Real in Playa del Carmen. Have you been to this resort? Can you give some pros and cons of this resort and tell about the surrounding area, like how far to a town and what’s there? Thanks. — – Kyle

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I’m thinking about putting together a group cruise for seniors to the Southern Caribbean. What cruise line(s) do you recommend that cater to the 50+ crowd? Kent

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>I’m thinking about putting together a group cruise for seniors to the >Southern Caribbean. What cruise line(s) do you recommend that cater to >the 50+ crowd? >Kent

A) I recommend letting a travel agent with several years cruise experience do the organizational work for you. B) I suggest you ask this question in rec.travel.cruising there you will find many experienced cruise  travelers who can provide valuable input, and C) check out the AARP (American Assn of Retired People) I think that they already have several senior cruises running. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

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OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to make their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the island, that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass tourists clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier time of things there. Tim

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The sign was specifically targeted at Beth Twitty, not the American tourists.

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> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. > media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign telling > us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME.

Well Dutch justice system. Hey Tim, please do not mix the Netherlands with Aruba. The Dutch justice system is quite ok for European standards, just not applicable in the often corrupt, us know us, islands in the Caribbean. I could also tell you a few political and social stories that would tell you the Dutch are not too happy still having these 6 little Islands as part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. For example we are not to happy with the immigrants that come from it. The latter are often, low educated, unemployed, and for a more then equal part involved in small crime. Furthermore the 6 islands all already for decades in financial trouble, which is then resolved by fundings from the Netherlands, and indirectly the common Dutchman as taxpayer. Or to say it in plain American English, they are a pain in the you know what.

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american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than aruba has in their history……. truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. Chuck

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> american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than > aruba has in their history……. > truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are > subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the > US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. > If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans > and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and > people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how > or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of > my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. > Chuck

I agree.  Fox News keeps going on about this crap every night with dumb hicks calling in and wanting to know why the FBI or the military doesn’t just go in and "take over" the investigation and/or all of Aruba.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than > aruba has in their history……. > truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are > subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the > US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. > If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans > and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and > people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how > or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of > my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. > Chuck > I agree.  Fox News keeps going on about this crap every night with dumb > hicks calling in and wanting to know why the FBI or the military doesn’t > just go in and "take over" the investigation and/or all of Aruba.

What do you expect Fox to do?  Cover Karlgate?   You think the Washington Press Corps[e] would cover this if they had any way to avoid it too? == Journalism: [n] The style of writing characteristic of material in newspapers and magazines, consisting of direct presentation of facts or occurrences with little attempt at analysis or interpretation. New Journalism: [n] The style of creative writing characteristic of people who are waiting for their next PR gig or book deal.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than > > aruba has in their history……. > > truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are > > subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the > > US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. > > If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans > > and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and > > people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how > > or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of > > my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. > > Chuck > I agree.  Fox News keeps going on about this crap every night with dumb > hicks calling in and wanting to know why the FBI or the military doesn’t > just go in and "take over" the investigation and/or all of Aruba. > What do you expect Fox to do?  Cover Karlgate?   You think the > Washington Press Corps[e] would cover this if they had any way to avoid > it too?

Is Karlgate as bad as Gannongate? The other ticking time bomb? LOL

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>dumb hicks

Don’t you mean Republican voters? They are synonymous.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than >> > aruba has in their history……. >> > truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are >> > subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the >> > US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. >> > If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans >> > and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and >> > people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how >> > or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of >> > my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. >> > Chuck >> I agree.  Fox News keeps going on about this crap every night with dumb >> hicks calling in and wanting to know why the FBI or the military doesn’t >> just go in and "take over" the investigation and/or all of Aruba. > What do you expect Fox to do?  Cover Karlgate?   You think the > Washington Press Corps[e] would cover this if they had any way to avoid > it too? > Is Karlgate as bad as Gannongate? The other ticking time bomb? LOL

I would say worse.  All those moral majority types look the other way when its Republican homosexuals… and apparently are willing to leave family values at the door when porn stars want to attend fund raisers.  But God forbid someone in Hollywood should say a dirty word….. I think the steady drip drip drip of deceit and double standards is starting to take its toll when folks in fly over country realize their footing the bill for this extravaganza.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> american legal system screws far more victims of crime in a day than > aruba has in their history……. > truth of the matter is, when you are in a foreign country, you are > subject to their legal system and this chicks mother whining about the > US putting pressure on them is a bunch of BS…. > If anything, the US tourists stop going, all the better for europeans > and canadians among others where this story has long disapeared and > people dont give a rats ass about 1 missing 18 year old tramp and how > or where she disapeared……I for one am an american, but find many of > my coutrymen to be annoying as hell when I travel….. > Chuck >I agree.  Fox News keeps going on about this crap every night with dumb >hicks calling in and wanting to know why the FBI or the military doesn’t >just go in and "take over" the investigation and/or all of Aruba.

That’s what happens when something bad happens to a blonde white chick.  No one would give a shit if she were any other race or if she were ugly. — lab~rat  >:-) Do you want polite or do you want sincere?

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I don’t know what the problem is– 459 of the 460 American high school students who visited Aruba had a great time.

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> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. media. > How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign telling us that > if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. Well, OK, that sounds > like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to make their money from the > wide variety of exports and industry on the island, that suits me. God knows > that without all those pain-in-the-ass tourists clogging up the streets and > restaurants, they will have a much easier time of things there. > Tim

It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like any other countrymen can. What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected to a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were suspected were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover up attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good possibility it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence and investigation. We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. —           BILL P.

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I don’t recall seeing any evidence that a crime has been committed.  We know a person is missing and we know her family has characterized certain persons as criminals.  The Aruban government has said there is no evidence to hold them.  We also know that in the past people have gotten drunk, taken a swim, and drowned.  Is that, or any explanation other than a criminal conspiracy not possible?

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> I don’t recall seeing any evidence that a crime has been committed.  We > know a person is missing and we know her family has characterized > certain persons as criminals.  The Aruban government has said there is > no evidence to hold them.  We also know that in the past people have > gotten drunk, taken a swim, and drowned.  Is that, or any explanation > other than a criminal conspiracy not possible?

the problem is the police. They are approaching thi case with the effort to save their precious touist economy at the cost of a girls life

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the problem is the police. They are approaching thi case with the effort to save their precious touist economy at the cost of a girls life>>>>>>> perhaps you should contract yourself out to the fla govt and teach them how to keep tabs on thier sex offenders, as they pose a far greater threat than to the world than the perpetrators of an isolated event….. Chuck

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. > media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign > telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. > Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to make > their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the island, > that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass tourists > clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier > time of things there. > Tim > It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of > many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should > know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like any > other countrymen can. > What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected to > a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high > level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were suspected > were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. > Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover up > attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any > different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good possibility > it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an > investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence and > investigation. > We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. > — >          BILL P.

Bill, I have personal experience in this matter.  Bonaire, one of the sister islands of Aruba has a very high crime rate, to which I and my scuba group were subjected to while on the island.  Nothing gets done about it.  Yet if you ask the Bonaire authorities what their crime rate is, they will tell you it is almost non-existent. Aruba is no different. r

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> the problem is the police. They are approaching thi case with the > effort > to save their precious touist economy at the cost of a girls > life>>>>>>> > perhaps you should contract yourself out to the fla govt and teach them > how to keep tabs on thier sex offenders, as they pose a far greater > threat than to the world than the perpetrators of an isolated > event….. > Chuck

How do you know it’s an isolated event? There is a huge difference between what the US is trying to do with sex offenders and what the Aruban authorities are doing to torture some American parents. r

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. >> media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign >> telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. >> Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to make >> their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the island, >> that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass tourists >> clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier >> time of things there. >> Tim > It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of > many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should > know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like any > other countrymen can. > What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected to > a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high > level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were suspected > were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. > Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover up > attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any > different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good possibility > it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an > investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence and > investigation. > We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. > — >          BILL P. >Bill, I have personal experience in this matter.  Bonaire, one of the sister >islands of Aruba has a very high crime rate, to which I and my scuba group >were subjected to while on the island.  Nothing gets done about it.  Yet if >you ask the Bonaire authorities what their crime rate is, they will tell you >it is almost non-existent. >Aruba is no different. >r

Bollocks!!!  From this and all your other flood of postings I smell troll. Proof please. — TomW. Dorset/UK

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. >>> media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign >>> telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. >>> Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to >>> make >>> their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the >>> island, >>> that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass >>> tourists >>> clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier >>> time of things there. >>> Tim >> It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of >> many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should >> know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like >> any >> other countrymen can. >> What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected >> to >> a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high >> level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were suspected >> were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. >> Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover >> up >> attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any >> different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good >> possibility >> it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an >> investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence and >> investigation. >> We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. >> — >>          BILL P. >Bill, I have personal experience in this matter.  Bonaire, one of the >sister >islands of Aruba has a very high crime rate, to which I and my scuba group >were subjected to while on the island.  Nothing gets done about it.  Yet >if >you ask the Bonaire authorities what their crime rate is, they will tell >you >it is almost non-existent. >Aruba is no different. >r > Bollocks!!!  From this and all your other flood of postings I smell troll. > Proof please. > — > TomW. > Dorset/UK

No troll here, Tom.  Proof?  What would you like? I live in Texas and we scuba dive in the Caribbean often since it is in our backyard.  Been to Bonaire several times and have friends here that make a couple of trips each year.  The diving is very easy there with many accessible shore dive locations.  As long as you stay on the more populated beaches, then there is little to no trouble.  Get off that beaten path though and the natives, the Papiamento’s will break into your vehicles and steal anything and everything in there. We never had any confrontations with them, they don’t operate that way.  But if they can get to your personal possessions, then kiss em goodbye. r

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. >>>> media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign >>>> telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. >>>> Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to >>>> make >>>> their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the >>>> island, >>>> that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass >>>> tourists >>>> clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier >>>> time of things there. >>>> Tim >>> It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of >>> many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should >>> know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like >>> any >>> other countrymen can. >>> What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected >>> to >>> a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high >>> level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were suspected >>> were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. >>> Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover >>> up >>> attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any >>> different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good >>> possibility >>> it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an >>> investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence and >>> investigation. >>> We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. >>> — >>>          BILL P. >>Bill, I have personal experience in this matter.  Bonaire, one of the >>sister >>islands of Aruba has a very high crime rate, to which I and my scuba group >>were subjected to while on the island.  Nothing gets done about it.  Yet >>if >>you ask the Bonaire authorities what their crime rate is, they will tell >>you >>it is almost non-existent. >>Aruba is no different. >>r > Bollocks!!!  From this and all your other flood of postings I smell troll. > Proof please. > — > TomW. > Dorset/UK >No troll here, Tom.  Proof?  What would you like? >I live in Texas and we scuba dive in the Caribbean often since it is in our >backyard.  Been to Bonaire several times and have friends here that make a >couple of trips each year.  The diving is very easy there with many >accessible shore dive locations.  As long as you stay on the more populated >beaches, then there is little to no trouble.  Get off that beaten path >though and the natives, the Papiamento’s will break into your vehicles and >steal anything and everything in there. >We never had any confrontations with them, they don’t operate that way.  But >if they can get to your personal possessions, then kiss em goodbye.

Sorry, I’ve been there several times. Rented open, rather ancient mini mokes. Never had any problems with stuff being stolen from it. OTOH I wasn’t dumb and left valuables in it.  Never problems with any locals. Only probs I ever had was with a bunch of Harley riders (mainly from US) who seem to take over the island and woe betide anyone who got in their way. They used to use the strip behind the pier at Kralendijk as their private race strip – no police intervention to control. Does this "event" still happen? — TomW Dorset/UK

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. >>>>> media. How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign >>>>> telling us that if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. >>>>> Well, OK, that sounds like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to >>>>> make >>>>> their money from the wide variety of exports and industry on the >>>>> island, >>>>> that suits me. God knows that without all those pain-in-the-ass >>>>> tourists >>>>> clogging up the streets and restaurants, they will have a much easier >>>>> time of things there. >>>>> Tim >>>> It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern >>>> of >>>> many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people >>>> should >>>> know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like >>>> any >>>> other countrymen can. >>>> What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected >>>> to >>>> a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by high >>>> level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were >>>> suspected >>>> were family members or friends of the upper crust of the government. >>>> Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent >>>> cover >>>> up >>>> attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any >>>> different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good >>>> possibility >>>> it could be much higher, considering that the primary function in an >>>> investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay the evidence >>>> and >>>> investigation. >>>> We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. >>>> — >>>>          BILL P. >>>Bill, I have personal experience in this matter.  Bonaire, one of the >>>sister >>>islands of Aruba has a very high crime rate, to which I and my scuba >>>group >>>were subjected to while on the island.  Nothing gets done about it.  Yet >>>if >>>you ask the Bonaire authorities what their crime rate is, they will tell >>>you >>>it is almost non-existent. >>>Aruba is no different. >>>r >> Bollocks!!!  From this and all your other flood of postings I smell >> troll. >> Proof please. >> — >> TomW. >> Dorset/UK >No troll here, Tom.  Proof?  What would you like? >I live in Texas and we scuba dive in the Caribbean often since it is in >our >backyard.  Been to Bonaire several times and have friends here that make a >couple of trips each year.  The diving is very easy there with many >accessible shore dive locations.  As long as you stay on the more >populated >beaches, then there is little to no trouble.  Get off that beaten path >though and the natives, the Papiamento’s will break into your vehicles and >steal anything and everything in there. >We never had any confrontations with them, they don’t operate that way. >But >if they can get to your personal possessions, then kiss em goodbye. > Sorry, I’ve been there several times. Rented open, rather ancient mini > mokes. Never had any problems with stuff being stolen from it. OTOH I > wasn’t dumb and left valuables in it.  Never problems with any locals. > Only probs I ever had was with a bunch of Harley riders (mainly from US) > who seem to take over the island and woe betide anyone who got in their > way. They used to use the strip behind the pier at Kralendijk as their > private race strip – no police intervention to control. Does this "event" > still happen? > — > TomW > Dorset/UK

Never ran into that so I guess we were lucky in not being there when they were there. We always rented the little mini-vans, held the side doors open as we drove for "natural" air-conditioning and loaded our gear in the back and took off. One of our favorite spots was what was called "Chet’s Cove".  Chet is now deceased but he and his wife lived up on the North shore.  He was an ex-engineer and had quite a setup of engineering equipment for study of geologic conditions.  He was quite a guy. He and his wife fed the iguana’s and so while there we got "up close and personal" with many of their little friends.  Chet’s son ran the photo shop at Sand Dollar. It’s been a few years since I have been back, but I have friends here that still go at least twice a year.  If I remember correctly, they said the Sand Dollar and Green Parrot restaurant are no longer there. r

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> It’s been a few years since I have been back, but I have friends here that > still go at least twice a year.  If I remember correctly, they said the > Sand Dollar and Green Parrot restaurant are no longer there.

Sand Dollar is there, but Green Parrot, along with the old deck and dock is gone, never to be rebuilt. The have another restaurant on the "road side" of the property.

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> No troll here, Tom.  Proof?  What would you like? > I live in Texas and we scuba dive in the Caribbean often since it is in > our backyard.  Been to Bonaire several times and have friends here that > make a couple of trips each year.  The diving is very easy there with many > accessible shore dive locations.  As long as you stay on the more > populated beaches, then there is little to no trouble.  Get off that > beaten path though and the natives, the Papiamento’s will break into your > vehicles and steal anything and everything in there. > We never had any confrontations with them, they don’t operate that way. > But if they can get to your personal possessions, then kiss em goodbye.

Well, if this isn’t trolling then it is at least an attempt to paint an entire island population with the stroke of one agenda. We visit Bonaire one per year, and have for the last 22 years. I’ve stayed all over the island from condos, to houses, to resorts and in all that time have not once been the victim of any crime whatsoever. We beach dive and snorkel, and leave our car/truck alone while doing it and nothing has ever been stolen…admittedly, just like here in the states I do not leave valuables out in the open for people to see them. But none the less, in 22 years of visiting Bonaire we have not been the victims of any crime whatsoever. Now, if it were as evident as you claim we would either have suffered it, or more than likely actually met someone who has. Neither is the case. Is there theft on Bonaire? Sure there is. Is it as rampant as you want to make it seem? No, not even close. Most of this goes back to the days when ALM transited many flights thru Curacao and the ground crews there used to just rifle bags and steal whatever they could get their hands on. Unfortunately people realized their lose on Bonaire when they opened their bags and Bonaire ended up getting a reputation far far greater than the actual incidents of crime would suggest or warrant. This is one reason I always tell people not to switch planes in Curacao…..not to let you bags get into the hands of the Curacao ground crews. It is almost like a business the way they steal from the tourists. If one exhibits half the care in Bonaire that they do or would in the US, and I suppose the UK, then their chances of suffering from theft crimes is minute.

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More people die from crime in LA in a 12 hour period than in a whole year in Aruba., i guess in won’t be visiting the uS of a anymore.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> OK, so the Aruban people are upset about their treatment by the U.S. media. > How much more hint do we need people? There was even a sign telling us that > if we didn’t like the Dutch justice system, GO HOME. Well, OK, that sounds > like a pretty good idea to me. If they want to make their money from the > wide variety of exports and industry on the island, that suits me. God knows > that without all those pain-in-the-ass tourists clogging up the streets and > restaurants, they will have a much easier time of things there. > Tim > It appears as though this thread has not covered the primary concern of > many people with thoughts of travel to Aruba. I think most people should > know that Americans can be subjected to crimes as tourists, just like > any other countrymen can. > What appears to have occurred is that not only the crime was subjected > to a cover up, but the suspected guilty individuals were shielded by > high level officials in Aruba. As a matter of fact those that were > suspected were family members or friends of the upper crust of the > government. > Virtually crime free, Aruba!, is this true. Based on the apparent cover > up attempts in this case, I highly doubt that Aruba,s crime rate is any > different than the rest of the islands in the area. And a good > possibility it could be much higher, considering that the primary > function in an investigation as has been observer is to wash and delay > the evidence and investigation. > We will no longer be scheduling visits to Aruba. > — >           BILL P.

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We are going on a caribbean cruise on Royal caribbean from Miami Navigator Sailing on July 2 for days. is this a bad time of the year to go on such a cruise? It is the EASTERN Caribbean cruise. We are a family of 4. 2 parents and 2 kids – 2 boys 13 and 9 Since we are on a budget ……. Question on Excursions Which are the best Excursions ? Which offers god value ? What Excursions should we not miss ? What would be really great for such a family ? Any pointers help would be highly appreciated Any other unrelated  suggestions to the above are MOST welcome. Thanks Ava

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exclaimed: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->We are going on a caribbean cruise on Royal caribbean >from Miami >Navigator >Sailing on July 2 for days. >is this a bad time of the year to go on such a cruise? >It is the EASTERN Caribbean cruise. >We are a family of 4. >2 parents and 2 kids – >2 boys 13 and 9 >Since we are on a budget ……. >Question on Excursions >Which are the best Excursions ? >Which offers god value ? >What Excursions should we not miss ? >What would be really great for such a family ? >Any pointers help would be highly appreciated >Any other unrelated  suggestions to the above are MOST welcome. >Thanks >Ava

Most of the folks who cruise, chat and review their cruising experiences at: rec.travel.cruises .If you post your question there, you’ll get lots of responses. As for excursions, sometimes you are better off taking those offered by the ship.  This is true if you don’t have much experience in selecting a reliable tour operator.  Plus, if there are any delays the ship is more inclined to wait for folks on a ship’s excursion. Let’s see boys 13, and 9.  If they are good swimmers I can’t think of anything more fun than a reef snorkeling excursion. I’m not sure if the 9 year old  may meet age/hight requirements but if so, riding horses in the water can be fun.  You get wet and cooled off and the horses seem to like it too. Some of these are just old nags that are ridden in a straight line, no fun.  So ask questions.   There are hight age requirements for some things so check before you book.  Many excursions are non-refundable.  If your itinerary includes a stop at Grand Cayman (more of a Western Caribbean but sometimes included in Eastern), an excursion to Sting Ray City is a must. It’s a sand bar off Grand Cayman reachable only by boat.  Sting Rays congregate there and don’t mind being fed by humans.  You might also put out feelers for dolphin encounters.  The ones where the dolphins are in pens are kind of sad.  But some are better then others.  There are a few where the dolphins are free to come and go as they please, they come back for the free fish.  Plus, I think they are just as curious about us as we are about them.  I have been on wild dolphin swims off the Florida Keys.   However, there’s less leeway for lapses in dolphin ettequit.  You don’t want to annoy or shock a wild dolphin.  So wild encounters are something the boys can do when they are older. Personally, for boys their age, I would book a Western Caribbean cruise that included Grand Cayman, Cozumel (excursions to Mayan Ruins on mainland.) and Jamaica (climbing Duns River Falls).  But, you probably got a good deal on this one.  If you haven’t already gotten your cruise documents, take a good look at them.  There should be some literature about ports-of-call and excursions.  Most of these indicate the degree of physical activity (walking, climbing, swimming) involved and any age hight limitations.  They should give you an idea of what’s available in any port and how much it costs.  If you opt to take a non-ship sponsored excursion, 1) it shouldn’t cost more than the ship’s one or extremely less, 2) pay attention to transport times, distance from the port and amount of activity time.  You should be returned to the port at the latest 1 hour before the ship sails. Always set your watches to ship’s time and be aware of the difference in local time. Someone I know made the costly mistake of engaging a local guide who’s time was 2 hours earlier than ship’s time.  She just told the guide/driver "We need to be back at the port at 4:00 pm."  The driver complied, but to her chagrin the ship had already sailed.  There were cruise line officers at the port that were very helpful in facilitating her transport to the next port of call, but she had to pay all the additional transport costs herself.  So, maintaining awareness of ship’s time is very important. —  To  email me, Edit "blog" from my email address.   Brian M. Kochera    "Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once!"  View My Web Page: http://home.earthlink.net/~brian1951

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